Sorry Joe, that is not fair. Every time Obama lies, I will take a shot. Every time Romney lies you take a shot. Every time one says something that is opposite of what they said before you also take a shot. Have your taxi take you to the emergency room.

I'll go home sober and that ain't no fun!

Actually, everyone would be drunk - simply because of the fact that all politicians lie or tell falsehoods or don't look into/speak of the reality of what they are actually able to do when in office. Now that is the truth.

There may be more people at the track, but only two are in the race.

One of the main reasons I avoid politics is the notion that, while living in a democracy, we are pretty much presented with only two real choices for President. For many, voting is picking the lesser of two evils. In a lot of cases, there are quality alternatives to vote for, but they would never have the money to campaign at the level of the two "main" characters (and I use that term loosely) running for either party. It would be nice to have a quality centrist/independent candidate with a real shot at winning. I can't stand Obama or Romney so once again, it's picking the lesser of the two evils.

check out GaryJohnson2012.com
GARY JOHNSON WILL BE ON THE BALLOT!

The only problem I see with a Johnson/Stein ticket is that they could take away just enough votes to keep The Presidential Imposter in office for another four years !!!
Face it, we may not be happy with Romney, but four more of the same would place Our Country under the thumb of the Red Chineese and I can't speak Chinese. These debates don't mean a thing and it's time to make a change in the White House. I will not live under Socialism, so Romney has my vote, and that's the truth !!!

Mr. Optimism.

So what? You don't spit into the wind, you don't tug on Superman's cape, you don't pee into the wind.

Admiral on a principle concept, but what a waste of money and time. The only thing people pay less attention to than Gary Johnson is our military dying for nothing.

"and he founded his own company which is more than can be said of either Obama or Romney"

Really? Who started Bain? Johnson?

Seems to me, Romney was the Governor of Massacheusets and founded his own company. A vote for Johnson/ Stein is a vote for Obama, and we cannot take another four years!!!

Jeffrey Immelt, CEO of GE and Chair of Obama's Job's and Competitiveness Council that has not met in 9 months. GE is a HUGE outsourcer of America jobs to China. "Since Immelt took over GE in 2001, the company has lost 37,000 American jobs, and added 25,000 jobs overseas, according to filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission. Some of those U.S. job losses are inflated by the company’s sale of NBC to Comcast in 2009. "
"Obama Jobs Council Packed With Outsourcing Companies "
"WASHINGTON -- During the past two weeks, President Barack Obama's campaign has blasted Republican challenger Mitt Romney as an “outsourcer,” focusing on his career with private equity firm Bain Capital. The Romney campaign hit back on Tuesday, claiming Obama's stimulus package failed to protect American workers and helped create jobs overseas.

If Romney really wanted a juicy example of outsourcing, he would have to look no further than the president's jobs council.

Obama's Council on Jobs and Competitiveness, 26 business leaders assembled by the president for job-spurring ideas, includes representatives of several companies that have used outsourcing, fueling job creation abroad and job losses in the U.S. Shipping work to low-cost overseas labor markets has been a trend in American manufacturing for decades. The White House has a plan to curb outsourcing, but companies represented on the jobs council reveal just how pervasive the practice is. "

Get a clue John Doe.

"GE "is a company that, despite the constant claims of growth, continues to shrink in the United States,” Townsend said. “These are a mixture of things from garden-variety, old-line manufacturing plants to electrical apparatus service facilities, sometimes something to do with servicing. Several of them were GE Capital.”

GE's outsourcing-related job losses have occurred over a long period, Townsend said. Unlike some of the companies that Bain Capital invested in -- which quickly fell into bankruptcy, faced layoffs or saw jobs shipped overseas as the private equity firm continued to profit -- the GE plant closures have happened slowly, he said.
“If you just back up five, 10, 15 years, those were all plants that were in slow, steady decline," Townsend said. "And that’s been the tradition of a lot of these things. All we’re detecting is the end of the era of these companies really wanting to do mass manufacturing in this country.” "

Obama himself is an outsourcer of jobs. He bets on Solyndra and loses OUR tax money to the tune of half a billion dollars. Then he goe to China to buy PV cells for the roof of federal buildings??!?!!

Feds ignore rules and use stimulus cash to buy Chinese solar panels.
"Government officials blame unfair competition from China for the collapse of solar panel manufacturer Solyndra, but such concerns didn’t stop the federal government from breaking stimulus program rules to use Chinese solar panels atop a federal building housing the offices of a senator, congressman and several agencies.

Even the contractor questioned whether Chinese-made panels could be used under the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, the stimulus program that mandated use of U.S.-made products. His query in early 2010 was dismissed and the General Services Administration moved forward with using the Chinese panels on the Sen. Paul Simon Federal Building in Carbondale, Ill., records show.

Questions about the panels, which were assembled overseas, were raised in a four-page advisory memo sent by the inspector general to the GSA in the summer of 2011, but the findings take on added significance as government officials increasingly place blame on Chinese subsidies for troubles in the U.S. solar market."

Joe - my statement is correct, which you obviously know. You get the clue.

Bill Bain started Bain Capital.

You really are dumb as a rock.

John Doe, are any of his investments illegal? Is he the only person who has such investments? Are those investments immoral?

And what I posted is all factual as well. The HUGE difference is Obama has his people sending jobs to China and from the other side of his mouth is blaming Romney for doing the same. And Obama is the only man in a position to do something about it and is not. He is not even ACTING like he is President. He is running like he has never before held elected office and is some kind of outsider.

"The company, and its actions during its first 15 years, have become the subject of political and media scrutiny as a result of co-founder Mitt Romney's later political career,"

"A former partner of Mitt Romney says the presidential candidate may have given the private equity industry more exposure, but he didn't give it its bad rap. He also sought to defend Romney's record at Bain Capital, the private equity firm the former governor of Massachusetts ran before getting into politics."

"Romney entered the management consulting industry and in 1977 he secured a position at Bain & Company. Later serving as its chief executive officer, he helped bring the company out of financial crisis. In 1984, he cofounded and led the spin-off company Bain Capital, a private equity investment firm that became highly profitable and one of the largest such firms in the nation."

Steve, you need to become much much better informed to compete in the real world.

Why do you think they call it "Bain Capital" and not "Romney Capital", Dumbo?

http://www.answers.com/topic/bain-company

Joe - I can't believe you are pulling the "it's not illegal" or "he is not the only one doing it" bit - what a weak comeback. But, you are very informed and an eloquent writer - you are kind of like President Obama, but with a computer.

Romney is a co-founder of Bain Capital. That information is very easily obtained.

That makes him a savvy businessman, and that's what America needs to get us out of the trillion dollar defecits, create jobs, and balance the Budget.

If I had the money he supposedly has, I wouldn't keep in any American banks. The Caymens, Turks and Caicos would be my money's home. Any large transactions in the US above $9000 is flagged by the FBI, Treasury department, IRS and of course O'Malley is waiting out front of your bank asking "What's in your wallet?"

It's actually $5,000 not $9,000.

So what is your solution for government? Dictatorship? Anarchy? As imperfect as it is, it could be a lot worse.

Representative Democracy.

The solution. Wake everyone the F*&! up. If you want to disagree with me, knock your socks off, I do not plan on arguing back against anything anyone says against me here.

But this government is awful, and I am ashamed of it. This country deserves better.

By having representatives that represent the electorate. But on the other hand we keep reelecting them so I guess we get what we deserve.

Well then. I have succeeded. That was fast.

Let the chips fall where they may....and may the choice that will bring us completely down at the quickest pace prevail !! let's get this greed driven mess over with once and for ALL...

"Doesn't matter which of these boobs get elected, our Country must completely bottom out before the actual~real restoration can begin."

On the mark as (almost) always.

The founding fathers would be nearly 400 years old. Give up on them. They had no clue what this world or country would look like.

Please do not troll a comment without providing an accurate or insightful comment. Toby has not mentioned the founding fathers anywhere in his comment. Yet you automatically take it to mean this. Why? Because your idea of American ideals was shaped by the founding fathers. Why don't you give up on them? Tell us your ideal America.

Bad Stats aka bad eyes. Toby said, "We all need to stand up to obvious corruption that is becoming a cancer into our founding fathers ideals". Your apology is accepted before I start calling you names.

Bad Stats, now that is out of the way. The founding fathers believed in slavery and dominance over women, great guys on that front, huh?

Bad Stats, awaiting your apology?

Fifa, not all the founders were slave owners or promoters. Some owned them and still thought it was wrong.
John Adams, Samuel Adams, Alexander Hamilton and Thomas Paine were not slave owners.

Apology granted.

My apologies for not seeing the second arm of toby's piece. I only read through the first.

@BadStats - done. My annoyance was your erroneous presumption that I was trolling and not making a worthwhile comment. I get very annoyed in that instance. Perhaps discussions will now focus on facts and policy. A reboot is warranted here.

PS - I ignore Joe.

@ Frank - FIFA and I already established I missed that. Again, apologies.

@FIFA I agree on the reboot. But I think that the funny thing about American principles and ideals is that when we formulate our opinions in the present, we often still base them on the founding principles of our past (400 years ago). We couch our beliefs in terms of "is this what this country was set out to do" and that is really what I mean when i say "This country deserves better". This country does deserve better. We come from a long history of rebellion, rebuilding, and prosperity, and to sit around and let it all be washed away because we have to quibble over small issues like abortion, it is just such a shame.

I know, some people think "Oh, well abortion is not a small issue! It's a HUGE issue!" well. CDC numbers from 2007 showed about 870,000 abortions in the United States. Less than 1 percent of the population of the United States. Way less than 1%. While trades of stocks on the NYSE number in the millions per day and potentially more with increases in technology and HFT. So what's the real issue? What is occurring more and is causing more damage?

I would argue markets are doing more and often do more damage than the <1% of women getting abortions. But maybe that's just me.

I disagree, party platforms do not do what you say. Platforms only appeal to the base and niche issues.

As someone who has run two state level campaigns. I can say, with the utmost certainty. This IS how a campaign is run. You can disagree, it is your right. But until you are in it, you have no idea.

I agree completely with you. However until the people demand better things won't change. I don't see a third party as viable, but instead it will require an electorate that is willing to think and learn the magnitude of the fiscal problem we face. Perhaps it will take becoming another Greece, but until the run of the mill citizen gets jolted out of his/her complacent ( or gimmie) attitude nothing is going to improve. I hate to sound so negative, but until people can get beyond their party and think for the National good...................

We are not talking about state level, we are talking presidential, I submit that is a different bird. I have read the platforms, they kiss different parts of the each base's butts.

No, we are talking state level even when it is a national election. Elections are decided by an electoral college, which is a state level body whose votes are determined by the voters of that state. Therefore, campaigns go into a state, and do their little performance in a manner that is tailor-made for that state.

They are not out there just campaigning willy-nilly, spitting out every fact that they know and every piece of their platform in every state. It is a tailored message and devoted to a state body and a state ideal. So great, you've "read both platforms". I can honestly say that I do not even know what you mean by that. You can not go out and 'read a platform'. You've read issues and the candidates views on issues. These issues have been configured, drawn up, and trumped up in order to capture as much of a 'base' (like I said AND you said) as humanly possible. So really, we agree, but you just disagree.

Once you get off your high platform we can have a discussion perhaps. Your big fat ego has gotten in the way of your eyes as was proved earlier. You high and mighty feeling of self worth is apparent and disregarded.

PS - the parties issue platforms, I have read them. Most presidential candidates ignore them.

How am I on my "high platform"? You are making a personal attack on me because I have disagreed with your assumptions and indeed pointed out that we agree on the issue of using the smallest details to capture the largest base, is that what is happening here?

Party platforms are national agendas drawn up from state level policies and practices. That is all I meant. In the bible belt, maybe abortion is what is brought to the party platform, in the northeast maybe it is gay rights, in the southwest it is an issue with the border. on and on and on. They put it all together, and POW. Platform.

@BadStats - that has to do with my perceived arrogance on your part vis-a-vis your earlier comment to my first post.

My point is they add each niche group in the platform to get as many of the base as they can. Perhaps semantics.

Har har. Weak.

Yeah they did. They were even calling him Mrs. Heinz.

You presume there is not a pre-nuptial agreement.

Frank "How many companies has Heinz wrecked? How many jobs has Heinz offshored?"

I guess I gave you more credit than I should have for being informed and thoughtful.

http://www.heinz.com/our-company.aspx
"Heinz is a $11.6 billion global company
Heinz products enjoy #1 or #2 market share in more than 50 countries
Heinz employs approximately 32,200 people around the globe"

Oops wrong link Frank

http://www.heinz.com/heinz-global-websites.aspx

In Romney's own words, Bain was a machine designed to "harvest" for it's investors. That was the purpose of Bain.

Who is that always says people post things out of context and do not post the entire comment?
Seems a one sides affair. Here is some more of the comment by Romney.
"We recognized that we had the potential to develop a significant and proprietary flow of business opportunities. Secondly, we had concepts and experience which would allow us to identify potential value and hidden value in a particular investment candidate. And third, we had the consulting resources and management skills and management resources to become actively involved in the companies we invested in to help them realize their potential value."

"to help them realize their potential value"

I believe you are looking at the "harvest" term in a somewhat twisted fashion.

If Bain ran every company into the ground as you all like to falsely claim, how long do you think struggling business would turn to them in an attempt to turn the corner and become successful? they would no today be in business and have so much resources from investors like State pension funds.

TJ, question, please source your "overseas" comment. Links would be nice.

And Fifa, didn't you call me out numerous times for not including a link? Double standard? See, I am not lazy and know how to find "quotes" using the search engines. Not hard at all.

Fifa, please source your "harvest" comment. Links would be nice.

1985 video, Romney says, "Bain Capital is an investment partnership which was formed to invest in startup companies and ongoing companies, then to take an active hand in managing them and hopefully, five to eight years later, to harvest them at a significant profit."

http://thehill.com/video/campaign/259015-obama-campaign-seizes-on-romney-harvest-video

To continue the quote again since you must have missed the above.
"to help them realize their potential value"

When a farmer "harvests" his fields, the farm does not shut down and lay off workers. They replant for the next hopefully successful season of bounty.
Companies fail every day. More often than not in the early years. The next big trouble spell is major expansion. The books are full of examples where expansion killed the goose. Bain helped through that period more often than not. 50% success in keeping these companies alive for 10 more years would be a success on their part. They had 70%+ rate. Quite good in the industry.
Then their was al the other Bain associates like the one in the Caymens. Sankaty Advisors, LLC. Run by Jonathan Levine.

Look at the parts of Bain and you will see that if any of these people were YOUR parents, you would be just like Mitt Romney or Jonathan Levine.
Funny thing about Jonathan Levine. His father was involved with Ivan Boskey and Michael Milken in the heyday of small time Wall Street shenanigans. Now people like Obama/Biden financial advisor Jon Corzine gets away with no charges when he steals who knows how many BILLION Dollars from his investors. You forget that don't you?

I believe we are those last 2 stages, well into dependency and soon into bondage. Though I would use a different word today, servitude. We will be at the mercy of Big Government.

David, I guess you are talking about the wealthy and corporations that have bought our government lock stock and barrel. What those in the 1700's failed to see was what the SCOTUS (5 of them) determined, corporations are people too. They rolled over in their graves on that one.

Fifa, can you explain to me exactly what you mean when you say "corporations that have bought our government lock stock and barrel"
I hear that often but never got a coherent answer to the question.

"It's really funny hearing white Americans whining about "oppression"."

Not long ago the same people were saying "It's really funny hearing black Americans whining about oppression."

"Vote like your lady parts depend on it, because they somewhat do."
Obama Campaign E-Card since removed form their site.

"This is a big fu^&ing deal." Joe Biden
"And believe me, he has a big stick." Joe Biden
"Stand up Joe!" Joe Biden
"they want to put ya'll back in chains." Joe Biden

Can't wait till the VP debates.

Upset? What gave you that idea Frank? Why ascribe feelings to me that are not relevant to the issue? Why make it personal?

LOL...it's hilarious when the libbie nutters just have to bring up Bush again.

Obama got him?

"He didn't do that, someone else made that happen."

Great link to a Drudge Report type site with lots of news in one place. I can now use this source and you can't blast it like you do when you have no argument.

Now Frank desperately wants to fight years old issues again as if there will be some other outcome.
"You don't pick winners and losers, you just pick the losers."

More uninformed bs from Frank. Frank, find me one link with the actual transcript of Obama's speech in 2007 IN FULL and not just the "official" transcript handed out by the Obama campaign. You will not find it.
CNN now says they had the entire tape in 2007 and never played it all. Just about 4 minutes of 40.

Catch up Frank.

Again Frank with your terribly ignorant habit of misquoting or actually putting words in my mouth when you just for the life of you cannot debate the subject? We know you lost the debate when you resort to such ignorance.