Highly descriptive post, I enjoyed that bit. Will there be a part 2?
http://www.cheaprvcamping.com

Only in your mind. Most undocumented immigrants (illegal is something that only applies after a court ruling as to whether a person is guilty of coming here without permission or not) are only coming here to get a better life than they can have in their nation of birth.

I cannot blame them for doing that, if I was in their position I would come to America without permission as well.

It's past time to stop worrying about keeping these people from coming (it's impossible to do that) and WELCOME them. Make it easy to come here legally and a process that takes at most 3 months save if you are coming from a nation with a known history of terrorists coming from there.
I.E. any country save Israel in the Middle East.

@Christopher: The legal process is actually a good bit of work. There are several months of immigration office visits, countless phone conversations, and a lot of legal fees. I think it is wrong to award people the rights of US citizens when they have done nothing to earn those rights other than come to this country when others that go through the process legally. One thing I don't understand: if an immigrant is illegal, how do they get enrolled into a public school or pay taxes legally? Wouldn't this alert the government about their illegal status and encourage their deportation?

I know right from wrong and legal from illegal - it is just that simple. Although Pat and I have been in opposition over the years campaign wise, he is 100% right, or more clearly, correct on this issue.

As ALL legal aliens are SCREENED for health concerns, should these then be subjected to the health screenings as well?

Joe, with all due respect, where are you getting this bunkus from? The only screening that is done is asking people if they have health issues.

Nothing more.

I am amazed how little concern you have ffor making an ass out of yourself Kidwell.
Here is what I posted. "As ALL legal aliens are SCREENED for health concerns..."
and you say it is "bunkus" then say "The only screening that is done is asking people if they have health issues."

Seems to be exactly what I posted. Shutup before you look worse idiot.

No they are illegal immigrants they have not followed the legal process to become US Citizens therefore they are illegal, Have you forgotten that part of the US Constitution from your Government and Citizenship Class? Here let me bring you up to speed: http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=a2ec6811264a3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=a2ec6811264a3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD Follow that link, and then apply your flawed logic to that of an illegal immigrant? You want your taxes to go to someone who is here illegal, and not someone who follows the law? My god some of you here are so misinformed, that I beg you to go back to school and get a refresher course on Government and Citizenship.

Anyone who does not fit the criteria in the above link are ILLEGAL immigrants there is no sugar coating it to make yourselves seem like you are compassionate.

Katie:

I believe illegal aliens are not allowed to serve in our military.

I disagree. The concept of charging out-of-staters more for tuition is because they don't pay taxes to our state.

Then there would be no reason to charge out of state rates. That's ridiculous.

It was not until 1875 that the first restrictive immigration law was created by Congress. You were fortunate that your ancestors made it over before we created our closed borders. I have been waiting "legally" to have family come from Europe for over 10 years. Great job done by the US immigration disservice.

Yup, that 10 year old brought here by their parents and now has graduated "slithered" over the border knowing full well what they were doing.

Daggum 10 year olds, send them back, wherever they came from.

Wrong.People who came into Ellis island had no papers,no documentation,hell half of them were given names by the people checking them in because they couldnt understand them,couldnt speak their language,or just wanted to keep the line moving! No folks talk about these folks taking money and resources but you continue to elect people like mcdonough who want to pass laws to watch and keep track of everyone and have govt run every part of peoples lives. Now he wants to sue if he cant get his way.Way to go pat! Why do you hate America and her people so much? If ya dont like it here move south,your politics play better there!

Michelle- I agree with you.

What an idiotic statement that is. The DREAM Act gives the opportunity for children that have graduated from high school in Maryland to get a chance to go to college. That is what it is about, nothing more.

Your statement, alone, makes me feel smarter.

Of course if you just look at your statement “the opportunity for children that have graduated from high school in Maryland to get a chance to go to college” and look at it in a vacuum then I sound like a horrible person trying to deny people basic rights. However this is a bigger issue. This is a government saying its ok to commit a crime and actually aiding in the action.
The problem is not immigrants because immigrants can be amazing people, it is the illegal part that many people have a problem with and to say that something illegal should be supported by the government sets a terrible precedent.

Jerry, you speak of others looking at the DREAM Act in a vacuum? The only thing in your vacuum bubble is the word "illegal". Those supporting the DREAM Act view it as much more than just that issue.

Jerry - if a 10 year old child is in a car when their parent commits a crime, does the minor child go to jail?

If a 10 year old child is in a car when their parent commits a crime, does the minor child get subsidized tuition?

Jerry, not everything is black & white, as you'd like it to be. If so, half our banking execs would be in jail for the financial debacle! Evaluating our decisions & balancing them fairly is much more difficult & takes more intelligence than just cliche-ing away the problem (i.e. "They're illegal, send them back!") Here are the real issues: 1. US employers NEED these workers! Do YOU want to travel around the country, picking fruit & being looked down upon because of your race? If US companies refused to hire undocumented workers, this would never have been a problem. 2. A child bought here & raised as a patriotic American & who has excelled in school, should never be denied or discouraged from an education; would you rather have uneducated poor, relying on social programs, or educated tax-payers (yes, they pay income & other taxes)? Last, unless the government is willing to deport every illegal alien, including the many Canadians & Europeans, whether they've been here for 1 yr or 50 yrs, then this mentality needs to stop! BTW, non-citizens can join the US military & receive a "fast-track" for citizenship, because they are considered to be contributing something important; why shouldn't innocent children, who have worked hard, obtained a college degree & who are contributing to the country, be allowed a "fast-track" to citizenship? McDonough needs to stop his band-standing & start working FOR the people of Maryland, who, btw, will be voting today to support our Dream Act.

Not so Steve. We have a process for the orderly immigration of the tired and poor, the huddled masses yearning to breathe... It's called legal immigration.

Steve:

Did you know that there was a contest for an inscription to be placed at or on the Statue of Liberty?

Did you know that Emma Lazarus won that contest?

Did you know that the sonnet, The New Colossus, was written in 1883, before the Statue was dedicated?

Did you know that her sonnet, was placed on the Statue in 1903?

Did you know that the sonnet does not have the force of law?

Did you know that America has immigration laws that should be enforced?

Thank you.

jnrentz1, do you know that we didn't have any immigration laws until the end of the 19th century? Do you know that our immigration laws have gotten more and more restrictive, to the point where it takes up to 20 YEARS for someone to immigrant legally today from some countries?

The bottom line is that our legal immigration system is broken, big time. It should take only 3-6 months for someone to get permission to immigrate to the Untied States and their visa should be good forever unless they leave America for more than 1 month and then come back to America without a good explanation.

In fact, just make it so that anyone in America for more than 1 year automatically becomes an American citizen unless they file paperwork saying that they don't want to become an American automatically when they first immigrate.

Christopher Kidwell:

Thank you for your response, and the answer is yes.

However, I respectfully disagree with you regarding your measures. I would greatly restrict current legal immigration and strictly enforce our current immigration laws, presuming to deport any illegal alien and not offer any kind of broad reaching amnesty to illegal aliens.

Warning - straw man sighting.

You are absolutely right. And as a Reagan supporter I was upset about the decision. And the aftermath as well. The intent was to deal with the illegals who were already here. Trouble is no one thought about future ones or the fact that the amnesty would encourage more such behavior. And it did, as we well know, now, with over 15 million illegals here at one point by some estimates. Where I live it is common for illegals to use more than one social security number, have under the table jobs while collecting welfare and foodstamps amongst other programs. If this continues no will be able to afford anything as all our resources will go to support such behavior. Stop it now. End the politics of it all and get back to reality.

Al, what you miss by a large margin, is everyone has a scam. Under the table payments is not restricted to undocumented workers. Small businesses routinely put cash payments in their pocket. The "poker" machine at your favorite watering hole. Large corporations and wealthy people game the system all the time. Where is your outrage? Oh, that's right, you are mad at the teenager trying to go to college.

Mad because they get welfare. How mad are you at the corporate and wealthy welfare we give out everyday?

Steve:

Ronald Reagan did not pass the "first Amnesty Program for illegals." Congress passed a law containing the amnesty provisions and the late President Reagan signed it. This is markedly different from a Presidents use of Executive Order(s).

@FIFA: So just because there are people out there abusing the system, it makes it ok for everyone to do it? One of the biggest problems no one is talking about in this country is the sense of self entitlement that the govenment or corporations owe you something. So many people now want to throw in the towel and say, "That person is getting a free ride, so I deserve one too." The realtiy: there is NO FREE RIDE. Someone is paying for everything, either through taxes or by piling debt onto the backs of future generations in this country. The government is not meant to pay the people. I say abolish in state tuition and give the money back in the form of a tax break- no one should have to pay for someone else to go to school. And yes, I have children. We are saving what we can for their education like people should be.

April: "Sense of self entitlement?" You are using cliches and unsupported allegations to argue against what? Illegal aliens? Government education encouragement? You obviously have limited vision and don't realize that an educated citizenry benefits us all...the entire nation! Would you prefer that only the wealthy and elite have college educations? One of the problems today is that we are trailing other countries in Math and Science education! How do you propose we stay ahead, technologically, in a world where education is being pursued by everyone except the US? Stop listening to the "talking heads" on TV and start using your head to do some research and find the truth about issues, not cliches and easy answers to tough questions!

@Ron P: "Educated citizenry" is what we get when people realize that they have to work for their education and that it isn't given to them at a discounted rate. Stop discounting education and it will be more valuable. If eduation is more valuable than people will want it more and work harder to acheive it. EVERYONE should have to pay for their own tuition wether they are legal or illegal citizens.

It still possibly violate Federal Law.

The nation of laws stuff is hypocritical, a false equivalency in this situation and boiler plate talking point. We will not agree, vote Yes on the DREAM Act and give a teenager a chance at contributing to our society.

Have a good "Day".

Agreed. Of the ones that are left, a good 90% of them have NO criminal history or wouldn't if the drug trade was legalized, like I have been calling for it to be for years now.

These people are not slavering animals waiting to kill American nationals children like the conservatives and immigrant-haters would like us to think they are.

Thank you for your service sir, did you realize you would be fighting and putting your life on the line for people who broke into this country? Who most likely are using forged or stolen identification?
does anyone think this is where these rewards will end? the frog in the pot of cold water is what this is.

Daniel, tell the people about those vans of illegal aliens that GO THE WRONG WAY on those highways to evade the police and then smash head on into a family of innocent people heading to a family affair across town. I am sure you have heard of those stories.

Or the illegal aliens who commit atrocious crimes then just run back south of the border to be a free man again until the heat dies down.

It would be nice if you went back.

Your math is bad, this doesn't cost Marylanders one cent. Out-of-staters who charge Maryland residents high rates can pay high rates here.

Pay taxes here, get in-state rates. Don't pay taxes, pay out-of state rates.

So Fifa, are you saying that New Mexico is not US State, and that I came here illegally? I would like to inform you that New Mexico is the 47th State of the Union, and became so on Jan 6th 1912. Go back and take Geography and learn your statehood. I pay Federal Taxes, so that should be good enough to pay instate tuition in any state that supports the DREAM ACT. If it isn't then the US Government and forcing Discrimination.

Fifi keeps pushing that LIE that there is no subsidy for in-state tuition rates.
How do you explain this story from 1993 explaining the SUBSIDY?
""The argument is that the citizens of the state should not be spending their money to subsidize education for persons who are not residents of the state of Maryland," said system Chancellor Donald L. Langenberg. "The subject has been raised by legislative leaders and taxpayers."
Maryland will continue to subsidize graduate students from other states because ending the subsidies "would price our graduate programs out of the national market," said Anne J. Moultrie, a spokeswoman.
But the policy requires that they pay at least 180 percent of the tuition charged to graduate students who are Maryland residents. That's already the case at the University of Maryland at College Park, but the fees charged to out-of-state graduate students at other campuses will increase under policy."
"June 12, 1993 Maryland taxpayers will stop subsidizing the tuition of out-of-state undergraduate students at University of Maryland System schools under a policy adopted yesterday by the Board of Regents.
Out-of-state undergraduates currently enjoy subsidies ranging from 1 percent to 25 percent, depending on which school they attend. They will pay the entire cost of their education when the policy takes full effect in 1998."
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1993-06-12/news/1993163039_1_tuition-and-fees-university-of-maryland-maryland-system

sorry Fifi about so many words. i know you are limited but try to keep up for our own educational purposes.

Sigh.... Joe, wake up. There is no subsidy except for the one that is given to ALL in-state people if the DREAM Act passes.

Looking for where I said NM is not a state. Can't find it.

Looking for where I said you came here illegally. Can't find it.

I know geography (small g) very well.

Paying in-state tuition is limited to those who pay taxes to our state according to residency requirements. Just like other states.

Your paying federal taxes has zero to do with getting in-state rates in a state you don't live. If you wish to change the law so vets can get that in-state rate everywhere, go for it. You might find support, except in Republican states that don't like giving vets anything in the way of benefits.

Your volunteering to serve is always appreciated by the way, I served, my father served. But that doesn't make you any smarter than anyone else and has nothing to do with this discussion. So why did you bring it up?

Joe, I'll try to make it easy for you. The assumption made in all of the studies is that the student will attend the college regardless of the cost. That just is nonsensical.These families are for the most part poor. The difference in cost will force many students not to go school because they can't afford it Thus in effect, this will reduce the revenue to the Community and/or four year college.

Statistics at times are for liars, like you Joe.

Quote Fifa:

"Paying in-state tuition is limited to those who pay taxes to our state according to residency requirements. Just like other states."

There in lies your issue you are saying that one should be a resident of the State, but illegal immigrants are not legal residents of any state or for our country for that matter, and those children who are of undocumented non-tax paying citizens should be deported or should be allowed the process of Naturalization by joining the US Military or by following the processes outlined in our Constitution.

Quote Fifa:

FIFA "29 minutes ago It would be nice if you went back."

That is where you assumed I came here illegally, and if you knew geography as you claimed then you would have not stated that.

So please get your facts straight and do some research before you support something that illegal residence should not be qualified for over those who are here legally, pay federal taxes that will help provide funding to allow those here illegally get the discounted rates. This only hurts the Nation, and not helps it. Do you not understand that, or has the Obama Flavored Kool-Aid clouded your judgement?

Fifi/Steve/Frank, it is a subsidy as the legislators have discussed according to the article. You seem to have severe issues with the truth and facts.

Kidwell, no need for your uninformed idiocy. When legislators discuss the law on the SUBSIDY as the article clearly states, it is a subsidy.

I guess the REGENTS have no clue what they are doing either? They are as uninformed and stupid as Kidwell? I doubt it.

""June 12, 1993 Maryland taxpayers will stop subsidizing the tuition of out-of-state undergraduate students at University of Maryland System schools under a policy adopted yesterday by the Board of Regents. "

Just for you Fifi/Frank/Steve.

From the UM REGENTS """June 12, 1993 Maryland taxpayers will stop subsidizing the tuition of out-of-state undergraduate students at University of Maryland System schools under a policy adopted yesterday by the Board of Regents. "

"Maryland will continue to subsidize graduate students from other states because ending the subsidies "would price our graduate programs out of the national market," said Anne J. Moultrie, a spokeswoman. "

Do you understand the difference between graduate students and undergraduate students?

Steve, stop showing up at a gun fight with a paper knife. Read it and weep silly boy.

"Table 2 presents our estimates of the per student fiscal costs for each category of student who benefits from the Dream Act."

It seems if there was NO COST to the taxpayers then this study was a waste of money.

I have posted indisputable proof this is a subsidy and STILL some will deny.

"D. Other Potential Costs
An impact of the Maryland Dream Act which is not included in our estimates of the private or fiscal costs is the lost revenue to Maryland community colleges and universities because some undocumented students who would have paid out-of-state tuition are now paying in-state tuition.

For community college there will be no revenue loss due to the Dream Act. On the
contrary, the Dream Act will result in an increase in revenue *****because the additional state subsidy is greater than the lost tuition revenue.******

"ADDITIONAL STATE SUBSIDY"

Now bring on the blind deniers.

If I were to apply 4 times for the dream act under 4 different names would I be disqualified?

And there was never any contention on that point was it? The issue was SUBSIDY and none of you are man enough to own up when your wrong. But you're good at then bringing up red herrings that no one contended.

I won't agree with you. The analysis did not consider that the student may choose not to attend because of the increased cost.

PS your dog is dumber than you are, he hasn't left yet. Have you stopped abusing him yet?

That's what fools do. Right now looks like they'll be losing.

Its still a study and a resource that shows the costs per student for the DREAM Act in various states regardless of their other issues.

That's like asking the Taliban what they think about the Bible you fool.

Heres another link for California: http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/state&id=8453232

Here is one for Maryland: http://washingtonexaminer.com/study-maryland-dream-act-would-initially-be-costly-to-taxpayers/article/2510169#.UIhkjMXA9Ns

The federal government would also have to pay about $50,000 a year for each class, adding up to state, local and federal governments sharing a total cost of nearly $7.5 million a year starting in 2016, if voters approve the Maryland Dream Act on the November ballot.

On top of what Maryland already pays for illegals:

Del. Neil Parrott, R-Washington County, who led the fight to get the law on the November ballot, said the state spent $1.6 billion providing services for illegal immigrants in the past year, including housing, health care, school and other costs.

That's still like asking the Taliban what they think about the Bible you fool.

Of course they will say it will be positive, they also said the same thing about Obama Care to get people to support it. And the kool-aid they are giving people is working. Politicians will say anything to get support, and the gullible people like yourself will drink it right up and swallow it. Then when it gets implemented youll be wondering why you can no longer go to the Raven's game due to your income becoming less and less. Its all lies. It will harm us more then it will help us. It is a known fact that immigrants who come here with student visas get degrees then go back to their home nation for a job. Look it up.

"It is a known fact that immigrants who come here with student visas get degrees then go back to their home nation for a job."

Well of course it is. That's the law. Students on Educational Visas have 60 days after graduation to stay in the US. After 60 days they have to leave.

They did that on purpose so that the non-supporters of this Bill would be frowned upon by the Veterans of the US Military. I am a Veteran, and find that more appalling then this Bill. The Veteran issue should be a separate bill and law entirely, because we are LEGAL Citizens of the US by Birth or by Military Servitude. It is a huge slap in the face of the Veterans and those that oppose this bill to have that included as a means and way to get support.

Daniel, I am going to be polite to you.

This referendum simply comes down to whether you believe a teenager whose parents have come here illegally and that pay taxes to this state, has the chance (Dream) to get an affordable college education or not. That is what you are voting about. Your no vote may prevent many from going to college.

I for one, will vote for the student every time. That's me, and I hope the majority of Marylanders. It will not change my life one nickel whichever way it goes, I'll feel better about it if that kid, and I mean kid, gets a chance for a Dream. That kid is here through no fault of their own. Maybe that was the parent's plan. I believe rewarding hard work which is what it takes to make it through college.

As a veteran, it is a slap in my face not to do what is right and fair, period.

Have a good evening, Daniel.

Why is it wrong, Daniel? Those undocumented immigrants are paying the same taxes (taking into account that most of them are making under poverty level and wouldn't pay any income tax each year) as a legal citizen or documented immigrant would.

I.E. sales taxes, various fees on services, etc.

It's time to stop with the bullshit LIE that these people are not paying any taxes. They are paying all the taxes they would if they were document immigrants. In fact, considering most of them pay into SS with no way to get money out of that when they are old? They are paying MORE taxes than most people do who earn what they earn.

@Christopher: Can you please tell me how exactly someone pays SS tax with no SS number? Did you know that legal visitors to this country on a working visa pay no income tax? How then are you assuming that illegal visitors in this country are paying income tax? These are the taxes that pay for in-state tuition. There should be no tuition breaks FOR ANYONE based on residency/ non-residency. If tuition breaks are awarded AT ALL they should be given based on ACADEMIC PERFORMANCE only. THAT would be a good investment in education for the future.

April...non-citizens DO pay taxes...if they acquire a legal TIN or a fake SS card, which many have, and they have taxes withheld, just like you or I. They also pay sales taxes, every time they go to the store. They also pay real estate taxes, as well as taxes on gas and cigarettes, along with a host of others. BTW...how many of our citizens are on ADC or other programs, like SSI or SSDI, and they, or their children go to college...WITHOUT HAVING TO PAY INCOME TAXES? There is nothing wrong with that concept...we are all better off by having our citizens educated. I have 2 boys who benefitted from Pell grants and academic scholarships...one is receiving his PhD, the other is working on his undergrad degree! STOP THE HATE!

I agree that having educated citizens is important. I do not argue with the merit of academic based scholarships. I am an advocate for higher learning. Tuition breaks should be given based on ACADEMIC PERFORMANCE not based on residency or on the amount of taxes they have paid- THAT would increase the value of education. Giving away education at a discount rate to sub-par students solely based on residency does not benefit anyone. It decreases the value of a degree, decreases the drive of the student to acheive better grades, and decreases the benefit available to those that are excelling. You can not make someone educated just by sending them to school, that is something a person has to want enough to earn it for themselves regardless of their financial or racial situation. Congrats to your sons! They sound like they are hard-working and an asset to the nation.

So you are resorting to name calling when you know you are wrong and when presented with a logical argument. Have a good life, and hope you love seeing your tax dollars go down the drain to a useless cause.

Just because Anne Coulter can insult people with intellectual disabilities doesn't make it right to quote her. That word is hurtful AND hateful and shame on people who use it. I pity them for not being able to come up with anything intelligent to say and how they must result to bullying and put-downs to try to win an argument.

PerryHallParent:

The word "retard" is not hurtful and/or hateful. However, I agree with you regarding the use of bullying and put-downs to try to win an argument.

Have to agree with jnrentz1 here. Calling someone retarded is just calling people what they are or what you think they are. Yes, mentally disabled is the same thing and is a little less 'demeaning' but it's still calling a spade a spade.

You aren't keeping up with your side's politically correct playbook if you are okay with using the word 'retard' in a demeaning fashion.

But of course those rules never apply to liberals anyway so carry on, hypocrites.

Chad, I am sure you posted your feelings every time Coulter made a stupid statement. Or did you just quietly laugh? There goes that crazy Aunt Annie.

I'm sure Sarah Palin who is very sensitive to that term also scolded Coulter?

Yeah, Ann Coulter is a great example of what's okay to say. She's an IRL troll. You could, perhaps, use your common sense instead of responding to her. That's what most people do.

I agree Chad, but she is loved by Fox who regularly put her on regardless of her nonsense. What does that say about Fox Management?

Your going to lose on both counts. That's what elections are all about.

" Barack Obama has cut money spent on border security in half from $1.3 billion in 2008 to $573 million in 2011" - that is false.

I don't begrudge anyone coming to the USA for education but give them a temporary visa.....they must check in with immigration on a monthly basis, and they have to pay higher tuition if they aren't a citizen? If they don' report in, then put out a warrant...un-enroll them and deport them when found and arrested. Anyone with a police record would not be allowed to return. If we don't enforce the laws, they will not be respected by anyone. If the parents of students are not here legally, they have to leave when the student graduates. At that point the child is an adult. If we did all this, we could hire more immigration workers to monitor these 'visitors' to our country. Anyone here on a visa can choose to stay with a valid reason and the successful completion of our citizenship requirement. Isn't that simple?

Sounds simple but you are missing some facts.

Annie, those coming in on education visas are usually highly talented individuals that get full free rides, a few athletic but mostly academic scholarships. Those that do pay their own way come from wealthy families abroad.

You just described McDonough in a nutshell. He runs around with his "Speak English" Crapola and the Racists and Bigots in his district keep electing him.
His constituents are still living in the '50's and he takes full advantage of it...

You aren't paying for it, they are paying for their own education.

Daniel I'm going to be polite but I'm not sure if you can follow logical thought. But I'll try.

1. All students that this apply to must attend Community Colleges and graduate or complete 60 credit hours. Right?
2. I believe if you check, there are empty seats at these Community Colleges. Right?
3. If the choice for the student is pay out of state rates or do not attend and they don't attend because they can't afford it, we the taxpayer then lose the in state rate they would have paid.
4. That is a loss to the taxpayer, these families are not wealthy.

If your argument is solely that they are "illegal" and get the heck out of the country at least that is honest. Don't give me some economic study, think for yourself.

Fifa,

How the heck do we tax payers lose out if no one is filling those empty seats. That does not make any sense what so ever. How can it be wasted if the tax money isn't being used, and it is being used to fund other things? You do not make any sense at all.

Daniel, I'm trying hard to make sense for you.

If a class has 20 students and there are empty chairs in that room. Just what does it really cost you compared to the in state rate the student would pay. It doesn't make any sense to me to keep them out of there.

If the student cannot afford the out-of-state rate and then does not go, we do not collect anything. These are not wealthy people. I can't make it any clearer.

Have a good day.

FIFA
12 minutes ago
Daniel, I'm trying hard to make sense for you.

"If a class has 20 students and there are empty chairs in that room. Just what does it really cost you compared to the in state rate the student would pay. It doesn't make any sense to me to keep them out of there."

If a tax payer like myself cant afford the instate tutition then that still leaves a seat empty, and there is no burden on the tax payer because it is empty.

"If the student cannot afford the out-of-state rate and then does not go, we do not collect anything. These are not wealthy people. I can't make it any clearer."

What do you mean collect anything? Doesnt make any sense to me. How does an empty that is not being used affect me the tax payer? it is simple it doesn't because it just doesn't. Otherwise schools would closing their doors left and right because they are fully utilizing their classrooms. I have had classes cancelled due to poor enrollment, and this is no fault of not being able to attend and being able to afford it. It comes down to appeal to other students to take the classes.

Have a good day.

In order to get an ITIN you have to be documented and of legal status other wise you aren't paying anything towards the tax payer system.

Wrong, it is a piece of paper and a number that is easily obtained. That is what is going on now. You just don't know it.

Income taxes are a small portion of what would be paid to MD at their income levels. They pay more in fuel, sales, property taxes than income taxes because they are poor.

Fifa,

The taxes they pay in fuel and sales tax goes to other things and funding then just lapses in income taxes. When I was in the Military, I could elect any state to pay taxes to via my W4 form, and I picked Texas because they have no income tax. So the only taxes they saw from me here in Maryland was from sales which is 6% of the price I paid for something, and fuel which is rather cheap and inexpensive compared to income taxes.

Daniel, if you falsified your state W-4 form I cannot help you. That is called tax evasion, not tax avoidance. You cheated the state that you owed taxes It is against the law. Just like crossing the border illegally is against the law.

You did that illegal act because you believe it was worth the risk. Some on this site say we are a nation of laws, I say we are a nation of scofflaws. You committed a crime it appears.

No Fifa, I didnt commit any crimes nor did I avoid tax avoidance. If it was a crime to do so, then there would be so many military members in trouble with the Law. The tax codes are different in the Military then they are in the civilian world. There is a standard form to use to be able to this. It is approved by the Government.

From irs.gov:

"ITINs are issued regardless of immigration status because both resident and nonresident aliens may have a U.S. filing or reporting requirement under the Internal Revenue Code."

Sorry Daniel, as a CPA your state reporting requirements are dictated by the states, not the military or the IRS or you. You are required to follow the laws of the state you are a resident. That simple.

The fact you don't get caught doesn't change the illegal nature of what you did.

Sounds like I'm talking about illegals, doesn't it? You just don't understand.

Huh? We are talking about kids, yes kids, going to college nothing else. Paying for their education, filling empty seats.

Sorry, Steve was right, I'm talking to a rock. I tried.

Empty seats will always be there regardless of how you try to fill them, My Cisco Class that I am taking has about 15 empty seats. there are like 10 students enrolled in just my class alone. You are wrong in the assumption that empty seats cause an impact to us tax payers. There is no correlation with impact on tax payers and empty seats in the class room. Show me some evidence from documented educational research from tap schools like harvard, yale, Cal Tech, MIT, VT, and others that show this correlation so you can up your useless claims that empty seats impact us tax payers.

Daniel, use some common sense.

If I have a class with 30 seats but only 20 students in it, it costs the College X.
If I have a class with 30 seats and 21 students in it, it costs the College the same exact thing.
If you can get $1 from that extra student you are ahead of the game. The difference is here, if the student has to pay out-of-state rates and doesn't go, you still have 20 students. If the student can pay in-state rates and go you get all that extra revenue at no real additional cost.

Sorry, I'm tired of trying to explain basic accounting.

Good night.

Again Fifa, where does that impact the tax payer? It doesn't, most public schools get paid for by investors and other fees like tution, and there are some schools that get Government Grants for research, but those schools are special schools like MIT, CalTech, and others that assist the US Department of Defense and other aspects of the Government with research and development. Otherwise there is direct impact to any tax payer, and you claiming that it is false. Provide me some research to back up your claims and I will reconsider my position, but till then your claims are false and your use of accounting is false.

Sorry comrade, you are the misleader on facts.
You didn't read the article did you?

The first lie the poster made was "" Barack Obama has cut money spent on border security in half from $1.3 billion in 2008 to $573 million in 2011".

1. First minor point - a fence is only a small part of border security.
2. Most important point is the article states - "Over $4.7 billion has been appropriated for BSFIT activities from fiscal years 2007 through 2011,” it says.

"The report breaks the figure down for the five consecutive fiscal years (the 12-month period from Oct. 1 to Sept. 30 of the following year) – $1.188 billion for FY2007, $1.303 billion for FY2008, $845 million for FY2009, $800 million for FY2010 and $573 million for FY2011."

Obama cut nothing, he spent what was appropriated by Congress. Your apology is accepted Ken. Facts matter.

Ken, you get your vote and I get mine. You attempts at drunken humor are noted.

Your bigoted views are noted as well. Just admit your hate, it is easier not to hide it.

Because veterans and illegals are in the same league. Wait, they aren't, that's a stupid notion. I bet if you passed the veteran's portion on its own (but then you couldn't get the illegals part though in a million years), there'd be no protest. Typical of the left. Stick something in the bill, then decry any opponents as not liking the good portions.

Here's a thought. Stop conflating the military in-state tuition with the illegals. You sound stupid when you do. One rewards legal citizens for their service and no one objects to it. The other offers yet another reason to break multiple existing laws and is almost certainly about to get voted down HARD.

as a veteran who has served 4 years in the Military tax money going to the veterans I have no issues with. Its the issue of giving those undeserving of the money to get a better education. They are taking care of second class United States Citizens over the first class ones like the poor inner city black families and those that are living under poverty levels that are legal US Citizens and come from Legal US Citizen Parents who did things the right way. Instead of sneaking across the border and skirting the naturalization laws as set forth by our US Constitution something that people have forgotten about when supporting bills like this and Obama Care.

I would support the Veteran Portion if it was separated from this ridiculous law.

And with that I am done with discussing this with people who are willing to give away their tax money to a worth cause and causing our taxes to go up to support this. It is a bull crap law, started by a Socialistic Administration not caring about the livelihood of their citizens that they are required to protect.

You all support Socialism, move to Europe.

Thank goodness Daniel is leaving. His having been in the military has nothing to do with this issue at all. Many of us have been in the military.

Daniel admitted to being a tax cheat, but he thinks that was okay. Daniel the Birther, good bye.

Affording instate tuition to Maryland residents has nothing to do with Socialism.

Nothing at all.......

fifa,

if it was wrong and against the law then I would have been court martialed for it and then I would be a dishonorable discharged veteran for which I would be no longer eligible for the Post 9/11 GI Bill and other Veteran Benefits. Its Approved by the Military and they are the Government, and if their payroll offices didn't approve of it they wouldn't make it possible to change your state for income tax purposes.

Steve,

And for your information if it were up to they wouldn't be considered Maryland Residents they would be considered illegal until they became naturalized. And yes giving my tax payer dollars to social programs is socialism. Here is the definition of Socialism: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Socialism

Pay attention to this: a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

And with that Good bye Socialists

You are confusing the terms "Citizen" and "Resident". Your not giving your tax dollars to anybody. This isn't a subsidy. They still have to pay their tuition.

Daniel, you promised you were leaving.

The funny thing about breaking the law, they have to catch you to charge and then convict you. You admitted to claiming to be a resident of Texas when that was a lie so you could avoid paying income taxes to the state you really lived in. Depending on the amount, that is a felony. You are not much different than the guy that crosses the border illegally. Except that he is doing it to improve his families life and you are doing it to steal. You are a self-admitted thief. Have you noticed no one defends you on this thread?

No one defends me on this thread, because its full of liberals who love giving away their money and impacting the lives of many others to full their socialistic ideologies.

LOL So if you take advantage of the GI Bill, is that "Socialist"??

Daniel, I have a feeling you have just insulted many conservatives!. My experience has been that conservative try not to eat their own!

It really is funny, you are defending your tax cheating. Don't be ashamed, many people on this thread probably do it too. Some are just mad at the brown people for catching onto the game!

Steve 6:37 pm on Friday, October 26, 2012
"This isn't a subsidy. "

I have shown that to be flat out false by posting the FISCAL NOTE on the law Steve yet you continue to make that false claim. Ask Fifa if it is a subsidy or not. He read the FISCAL NOTE that said it was indeed a subsidy.
STOP the lies Steve.

Here is more that Steve will not read and then continue to lie about it being a subsidy.
http://www.umbc.edu/mipar/Documents/dreamactpolicybrief.pdf

"For community colleges, the Dream Act will result in an increase in
revenue because the additional state subsidy is greater than the lost tuition revenue."

"For 4-year universities, the Dream Act results in lost revenue because there is a tuition loss but no additional state subsidy due to the Dream Act."

"Costs to local, state and federal governments increase when students obtain more education at public institutions because these governments subsidize students in high schools, community colleges and universities. In this study, fiscal costs to the different types governments are measured as the per student subsidies going to the high schools, community colleges or 4-year universities."

How much evidence is needed to convert the blind to the truth?

For the TRUTH adverse like Steve!
http://mlis.state.md.us/2011rs/fnotes/bil_0007/sb0167.pdf

This SHOULD put this issue to rest but some will continue to deny even the FISCAL NOTE on SB 167.

"State Effect: General fund expenditures for the Senator John A. Cade funding formula increase by at least $778,400 in FY 2014 due to an increase in the enrollments of qualified in-state students at community colleges. General fund expenditures for Baltimore City Community College (BCCC) may also increase minimally beginning in FY 2014 (not shown below). Future year expenditure increases reflect growth in the number of qualified resident students attending community colleges and increasing per pupil appropriations for the Cade and BCCC formulas. Tuition revenues at public institutions of higher education may be affected, with a potential significant loss of revenues for specific institutions beginning in FY 2013. This bill affects a mandated appropriation."
"Local Effect: State aid for community colleges increases by at least $778,400 in FY 2014. Community college tuition revenues may decline to the extent that additional individuals qualify for in-county rather than out-of-county tuition. Community college expenditures may increase if enrollments increase significantly as a result of the bill."

If it INCREASES "General fund expenditures" then it is a subsidy.

From Blob's own link:

"Specifically, the following results hold under all sets of alternative assumptions that we consider: the total net economic benefits of the Dream Act are always positive and large; total net fiscal benefits to the state government are always positive; and total net fiscal benefits to the federal government are always positive"

Just admit you are a bigot and keep ignoring the truth. You are just fearing the Brown Man.

Steve, I have proven to you and Fifa that in-state tuition is subsidized by the taxpayers. I have shown you the facts from the Legislature and from the study group set up for the purpose.

And your response to me? "Just admit you are a bigot and keep ignoring the truth."

Seeing as how I have said not a word on this bill in support or not, for you to cal me a bigot shows just how ignorant and vile you are. You are a reprehensible person who has no moral basis. I proved you wrong that it IS a SUBSIDY and you have nothing but vile childish name calling.

That's Hogwash! No students or Seniors have been denied anything.

If anything, Seniors that cash their Government checks should thank an illegal. They are the only ones that are propping up Social Security.

We don't fear color. We instead have no tolerance for people that are paid to fill up websites with drivel such as yours.

Steve:

"Keep Fearing the Brown Man........"

A couple of observations: First the "Brown Man" as you say does not have, and should not have more Rights, Privileges, and Status, than the non-Brown Man.

Second: What about illegal aliens that are not Brown? Would you and your supporters advocate on their behalf? Would you advocate for the Illegal aliens from Ireland, and or Israel?

Thank you.

"Second: What about illegal aliens that are not Brown? Would you and your supporters advocate on their behalf? Would you advocate for the Illegal aliens from Ireland, and or Israel?"

We don't see members of the Hate Group Help Save Maryland stomping on the Israeli flag now do we?

Joe Pasko, "paying taxes" in NOT any part of the law. FILING taxes is.

When an illegal alien files 3 or 4 years of back taxes for their child to qualify, the IRS will see that the filer has been EVADING taxes for those years and at a minimum a penalty will be assessed and that penalty may be the same as the subsidy they will get for school.
Not a choice many illegal aliens will take in my opinion.

Joe Pasko:

Good questions.

The parents are not lawfully working. The students cannot lawfully work after graduating. What is going on is "Amnesty by Increments." The various legal obstructions will be gradually removed until the law violator is rewarded with citizenship.

April...again, with the sound bites and cliches, without any thought to what you are saying! According to your lamentable position, America should be ruled by the educated few...those who are wealthy enough to afford an education, because the more educated people there are, the less important an education is. You have no clue what makes a Democracy great! Having a poor, uneducated underclass will not make this country better...it will make it worse. Again, stop with your unsupported cliches and ridiculous analogies! They show you to be very limited in your knowledge and ability to research the facts!

BTW...your statements are a "slap in the face" of the Statue of Liberty and the plaque that accompanies it: "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free;
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless,
Tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

THIS is what America is about! Stop your hating!

Ron Pagano:

Did you know that the sonnet The New Colossus was written in 1883?

Did you know it was written by Emma Lazarus?

Did you know she dies in 1887?

Did you know the sonnet was entered in, and won a contest?

Did you know that the sonnet does not have the force of law?

Did you know that the sonnet was placed on the Statue of Liberty in 1903?

@Ron P: Oh Ron!!! Yes, I do think that the educated (not the wealthy) should should be running this country. You are confusing money and education. If you read more closely you will find that what I said was that no one should be offered a free pass. If academic excellence is rewarded with decreased tuition, that would be one thing, but we are not talking about merit based scholarships here. That I would be in support of. We are talking about lowering tuition based on residency, and as I have stated before, NO ONE should get a lower rate for tuition based on residency-including "white hillbilies" and any other race of people in this world.

Actually, two of the people I know have become citizens of this country in the past four years. They are residents of MD and they ARE NOT in support of this bill. I don't know about the agenda of HSM or wether they are hate based, but I do know that my friend and family member do not agree with this bill having undergone the legal process of immigration. I myself am not racist or prejudiced against skin color, but believe that if you really want something you should earn it of your own merit and not have it given to you wether you are a citizen of this country or not. When you have worked to earn what you have you know the true value of it. Lets hold ourselves and others up to higher standards not lower ones.

Steve:

On reflection do you think using the term "White Hillbillies" is appropriate?

I agree that having educated citizens is important. I do not argue with the merit of academic based scholarships. I am an advocate for higher learning. Tuition breaks should be given based on ACADEMIC PERFORMANCE not based on residency or on the amount of taxes they have paid- THAT would increase the value of education. Giving away education at a discount rate to sub-par students solely based on residency does not benefit anyone. It decreases the value of a degree, decreases the drive of the student to acheive better grades, and decreases the benefit available to those that are excelling. You can not make someone educated just by sending them to school, that is something a person has to want enough to earn it for themselves regardless of their financial or racial situation. Congrats to your sons! They sound like they are hard-working and an asset to the nation.

Steve:

No. You are wrong. US District Judge Moore ordered that US citizens whose parents are illegal aliens must be provided instate tuition at Florida Public Colleges and Universities. Florida had been classifying students according to their parents illegal immigration status. Judge Moore rules that this practice violated the Constitutions Equal Protection provision.